Anti authoritarian filter

petitminion

i've been looking more and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_neo-Nazi_bands is only a subt-type of fascist band, for example there is also this list : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Socialist_black_metal_bands

can't find a general list of authoritarian bands, so instead maybe we could use wikidata to build this list

LorenDB

I appreciate the sentiment, but I disagree with the proposal. Funkwhale is designed to allow anybody to host their own music, which may include content that the user likes but is unavailable on other platforms. By arbitrarily blocking certain music, you've gone against this functionality of Funkwhale. A better idea IMO would be to implement a system to alert users if they've uploaded fascist music, as well as administrators. Any predefined blacklists should be opt in only. At that point, though, you might as well expand this to any kind of offensive, hurtful, or illegal music.

Just my $0.02 as a happy Funkwhale user 🙂

petitminion

Thanks for your cents 😃

LorenDB Funkwhale is designed to allow anybody to host their own music

This will not change, unless music is fascist

LorenDB which may include content that the user likes but is unavailable on other platforms [...] you’ve gone against this functionality of Funkwhale.

I don't understand this argument, blocking fascist content will not go against allowing user to upload music that is not available on other platforms

LorenDB By arbitrarily blocking certain music

I don't think a community build list is arbitrary.

LorenDB a better idea IMO would be to implement a system to alert users if they’ve uploaded fascist music, as well as administrators. Any predefined blacklists should be opt in only.

Yes I proposed this also but it's not radical enough from my pov : Because anti-fascism is not an option at Funkwhale o/

LorenDB At that point, though, you might as well expand this to any kind of offensive, hurtful, or illegal music.

this is more subjective than "faschist" or "nazi" so I don't want to bother maintaining this kind of list and follow the endless debates arround them.

petitminion

query builder https://w.wiki/Czwe

SELECT DISTINCT ?item ?itemLabel WHERE {
  SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE]". }
  {
    SELECT DISTINCT ?item WHERE {
      ?item p:P31 ?statement0.
      ?statement0 (ps:P31/(wdt:P279*)) wd:Q215380.
      {
        ?item p:P136 ?statement1.
        ?statement1 (ps:P136/(wdt:P279*)) wd:Q533914.
      }
      UNION
      {
        ?item p:P1387 ?statement2.
        ?statement2 (ps:P1387/(wdt:P279*)) wd:Q204481.
      }
    }
    LIMIT 100
  }
}

petitminion

i will track my progress here https://dev.funkwhale.audio/funkwhale/funkwhale/-/issues/2395

ppom

Just a quick message to support this initiative!
From me and 4 other Funkwhale admins 🙂

king_brad

I’ve been looking into Funkwhale recently and am looking forward to getting a chance to set this up as a new user but this sort of direction would concern me a bit. Agree with @LorenDB

Who gets to decide what’s fascist and what isn’t? I think this word gets thrown around a lot but it’s not always so black and white (same with eg “communist”). I think it’s going to be impossible to come up with an objective definition of what this is that everyone will agree with for it to be implemented at the software level. And it goes the other way too. Should we ban “far left” bands? That’s a lot of punk off the table.

I think though at a server level this would make sense and is kinda the whole point of federation.
But I think by trying to ban (or even flag) stuff for everyone it will just strengthen these views as people will feel like they’re being censored.

I also definitely don’t think that it should be the responsibility of an open source project to be calling out eg specific festivals (eg Hellfest in your PR, which actually looks banging to be fair)

bigboy363

Hello.
I was walking around the funkwhale gitlab, and I came across the this issue's merge request.
This makes me... uncomfortable. I will break down my issues into two categories: Implementation and freedom.

Freedom is two sides of the same coin; you get to do things that make other people uncomfortable, but in turn they get to do things that make you uncomfortable. Who are we to decide what is too much? Which political direction, left or right? This decision should ultimately be left to the hands of the instance moderators -- and it typically is. Don't federate from platforms that contain this hateful content. If you don't like what a user uploads, moderate. If you're unwilling to do that, don't host an instance.
@LorenDB said it clearly the first time, please consider re-reading what he put down. I admire his suggestion to notify a user (or moderator), but more on that in a moment.

Implementation:

I have a few issues with the implementation. Please keep in mind that I don't understand all of what the code does, so I apologize if I am incorrect in some areas. Please let me know!

You run this script through a crontab job once per month, on upload, and it caches the results from wikidata.org for an hour after running. It always runs on the 3rd day of the month, at 3:30 AM (local time?)

If 1000+ funkwhale instances (some with thousands of artists) all do this at the same time, no doubt wikidata will be unhappy (I do not know how robust wikidata is).
If this crontab check is to look for existing or updated tracks containing these labels, wouldn't it be trivial from someone to grief wikidata in an attempt to remove an artist from all funkwhale instance?
How does this work for local media files imported into funkwhale?
Does this notify a moderator, or does it prevent the upload of the file or even just delete it... Or does it upload, it just doesn't display it?

This is a decent concept for an auto-mod in general, but one that should be able to be modified by the instance moderator. Say, an instance dedicated to techno music, so the mod would use this to check for country artists (since there is rarely overlap there) -- that sounds like a great use. Maybe people want to filter lesser but still extreme alt-right content? Why shouldn't they be able to?

All in all, your heart is in the right direction. I simply believe that hardcoding this is childish and naive. By hardcoding it you: limit the usefulness of the tool. Limit the choices of moderators. Enable griefing. Potentially prevent historical preservation (some people do it with good intentions). It does NOT disable truly hateful people from modifying their funkwhale instance or from downloading a modified version, or even just modifying their hosts file to blackhole requests to wikidata.
People with bad intentions will still do bad things.

I hope that you consider my perspective.

petitminion

bigboy363 hello and thanks for joining 🙂

All in all, your heart is in the right direction. I simply believe that hardcoding this is childish and naive.

Or CoC prohibit derogatory content. Plz don't do that again.

Who are we to decide what is too much?

this is super abstract, I mean we are human and we take decisions collectively so I don't understand the argument

Which political direction, left or right?

This is not the question here. The definition of what is nazi music could be raise and has already been raise tho'.

If 1000+ funkwhale instances (some with thousands of artists) all do this at the same time, no doubt wikidata will be unhappy (I do not know how robust wikidata is).

indeed, I need o randomize the time of all tasks that run periodically and send remote requests

Does this notify a moderator, or does it prevent the upload of the file or even just delete it... Or does it upload, it just doesn't display it?

it trigger a log but do not notify moderators. I display a frontend message explaining why the upload is refused. If its an upload or not doesn't matter, this is only about audio metadata, we don't care were it comes from.

By hardcoding it you: limit the usefulness of the tool.

how ? This will only limit nazi music. still usefull for other things

Limit the choices of moderators.

to allow nazi music.

Enable griefing.

Potentially prevent historical preservation (some people do it with good intentions).

they can do it elsewhere, funkwhale is not archive.org. Funkwhale is for sharing music, this is a fallacious argument

truly hateful people

what do you mean ?

modifying their funkwhale instance or from downloading a modified version, or even just modifying their hosts file to blackhole requests to wikidata.

it doesn't matter if they can, most of the network will ban them by default. And it's a nice thing nazi have to do some extra work to use funkwhale no ?

wouldn't it be trivial from someone to grief wikidata in an attempt to remove an artist from all funkwhale instance?

https://dev.funkwhale.audio/funkwhale/funkwhale/-/issues/2395#note_68941

We could add this argument : will the moderation of wikidata allow to build a definition a neo-nazi music based on sociocraty principle/consensus ?

bigboy363

petitminion
I apologize for my transgression.

Unfortunately, I do not feel as though my concerns are addressed (though I appreciate the technical items that have been addressed). To me, this is an abstract issue, and humans can make decisions on the individual level.

Truly hateful people are people who want to spread hate (like nazis). Modification of the hosts file is extremely menial, and looks like an effective workaround to me (untested). I do not think that this wikidata check will work to stop someone who wishes to spread hate. It will be a minor inconvenience at best. Without modification, what if they changed the artist's name? By even a character? What if they don't include an artist? An undocumented band? Anagram? Caesar Shift? Case-sensitive?

If the networks will ban them anyways, then why implement this?

My argument stating that hardcoding will "limit the choice of moderators" is also "what if the moderators want more to be removed" - forgive me, I do not know of these genres, but what if someone wanted to keep out a different genre of hateful music that was not listed here? What if a new genre is developed that needs blocked?

Thank you for your response, thank you for your time.

petitminion

humans can make decisions on the individual level.

yes they can, but this is not the question here. This is a collective project, so we take decision collectively.

. Modification of the hosts file is extremely menial, and looks like an effective workaround to me (untested).

plz don't repeat yourself.

Without modification, what if they changed the artist's name?

we wont be able to find the artist so we don' t care, if the use a artist name that exist they will not be able to listen to this artist and if the invent a name we can ban this new name. You other arguments on this matter do not make sens (you can"t have a track without artist)

If the networks will ban them anyways, then why implement this?

To avoid moderation work and to create a collective / consent based definition of nazi music

My argument stating that hardcoding will "limit the choice of moderators" is also "what if the moderators want more to be removed" - forgive me, I do not know of these genres, but what if someone wanted to keep out a different genre of hateful music that was not listed here? What if a new genre is developed that needs blocked?

this can be another feature

bigboy363

petitminion
...Why can't I repeat myself?
Either way, it was to respond to "they'll have to work for it". Not a lot of work was my point.

I was not aware that you had to have an artist. Very informative, thank you.

My name concern was related to 河蟹 <- obviously this wouldn't be remotely as serious, but playing name cat-and-mouse could catch legitimate artists in the crossfire.

On your request "please don't repeat yourself", is this a "I'm a moderator, do as I say or else", is it a "if you repeat yourself from now on that's harassment, against our CoC"? Or, since it was a please, does that make it a personal request that can be denied?

Edit: I didn't see https://dev.funkwhale.audio/funkwhale/funkwhale/-/issues/2396 until now. Yeah, there's no way anyone will ever be able to change your mind. The objections raised there are extremely well articulated. I will have to step out of this discussion, but please let it be known that I object to this change, and I support https://dev.funkwhale.audio/LorenDB and https://dev.funkwhale.audio/wieldable_animating626 , and I will support a fork should this filter be implemented. Stay well.

petitminion

bigboy363

Yeah, there's no way anyone will ever be able to change your mind. The objections raised there are extremely well articulated.

I think you don't understand how funkwhale works. You don't need to change my mind or anybodies mind. We use consent and consensus to take decisions. So you just need to have a coherent argumentation. To avoid repeating ourselves this issue is used to gather the arguments

I also want to say that you're being insulting again. You're jugging y personal qualities, saying I'm not able to change my opinions and that I cannot recognize "well articulated" arguments. In other words you're saying I'm stupid. Which you already did before (saying I' a child and naive). This is the last time. Next time I will delete your account.